Curse

[DE] · Aug 04, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I don't think Guild Wars is dead. Dying, yes, but every game does. But just because a game is dying doesn't mean you should stab it in the face seven times with a butcher knife.

Bryant Again · Aug 05, 2009, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Micromanagement: the timing of using your skills. Choosing which skill to use for that precise moment. Calculating energy use and requirements. Quickly taking in the battle and choosing which skill to use and when. That's precisely what playing Guild Wars is about - in other games, we call it micromanagement. Handling tactics, or, one might say, governing short-term local actions of unit(s) you control.

The only things you need to manage for your heroes is positioning and calling. Aside from that, it's pretty much putting together a good build for yourself - in which case it comes down to which order of the buttons you press. There's very little skill in play. All that matters is the pre-game: what you bring, how it works, when it works, if it works.

Lishy · Aug 05, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Since when did rpgs require skill?
Gw as a whole never had skill in the first place. Only basic strategies, most of which are common sense like pulling.

So the AIing your way to endgame argument is also pointless.

Targren · Aug 05, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The only things you need to manage for your heroes is positioning and calling. Aside from that, it's pretty much putting together a good build for yourself - in which case it comes down to which order of the buttons you press. There's very little skill in play. All that matters is the pre-game: what you bring, how it works, when it works, if it works.

A prime example of someone who doesn't know all that you can do with heroes.

Improvavel · Aug 05, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Assuming all players are competent.

P = Player, H = Hero

8P > 7P 1H > 6P 2H > 5P 3H > 4P 4H > 3P 5H > 2P 6H > 1P 7H

This would be the logical assumption. However, you have to realize that not all players are competent, heroes can run certain builds inhumanely well, and can also run most builds better than the majority of Guild Wars players.

Now combine that with giving someone the option of playing the game solo with 7 of those heroes, or trying to find groups with people they aren't sure they can rely on. As soon as you allow 1 man + 7 heroes, you are essentially ruining PvE. There's almost zero need for a group anymore. The game turns into a single-player RPG where you go to Guru to find what 7 hero builds you need to equip to steamroll through every single Elite zone.

The fact is, by allowing 7 heroes you're replacing human error with A.I. error. I can guarantee you that the A.I. will make a lot less mistakes than the majority of players that we have in this game. While the two are on opposite ends of the spectrum you have to remember that you're facing other A.I. in PvE. Technical play is rewarded a lot more in PvE than spontaneous and unpredictable play is (like in PvP). Obviously, heroes have a much better chance than humans of succeeding at the technical aspects of the game.

The 7th hero alone isn't the doomsday machine.

It's the 7th hero combined with the other 6 that forms Captain Plane- err.. the doomsday machine.

Do 2 players plus 6 heroes steamroll every area?

What you are focusing isn't individual skill with that type of evaluation - its team skill!

Arkantos · Aug 05, 2009, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Do 2 players plus 6 heroes steamroll every area?

As far as vanquishing, missions and dungeons go, yes, 2 players and 6 heroes do steamroll most. You know there's a problem when sabway/discordway/spiritway/whatever can complete these areas faster than a balanced team of 8 decent players.

[DE] · Aug 05, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

I'm glad you've backed up your claims with solid proof and sound, rational explanations!

Improvavel · Aug 05, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

I'm glad you've backed up your claims with solid proof and sound, rational explanations!

Experience.

If your teams with decent players are worse then sabway it is your team problem - or actually, maybe those players aren't as decent as you think.

Any area I do with 7 other good players I always do much much faster than with heroes (and in a balanced way), which unfortunately is rare as 7 good players that want to do the same you do aren't easy to come around.

It was you that didn't present an argument why 1 player + 7 heroes is sooooooooooooooo much better than 2 players + 6 heroes, that will completely create so imbalanced builds that will turn elite areas into a joke (as if 8 people parties don't do that nowadays).

And you know very well why you didn't argued that - because 1p+7 heroes isn't better than 2p+6 heroes!

But to your view of the game 2 players + 6heroes is irrelevant because they represent a minority compared 1 player playing with h/h.

All those players completing those elite ares, even if a slow way, would create an upheaval in the OH SO MUCH IMPORTANT ECONOMY OF THE GAME!.

So, the best way to prevent that is keeping them out of those areas by not giving them 7 heroes!

Yes, on average AI is better than human players because the average player knows shit about the game.

But all the advantages the AI possess over those players mean shit compared to the experience and cunning a human player that knows what he/she is doing.

And while you talk about all the builds heroes run better than humans (I can only think of interrupt builds that are useless anyway, minion bombers that are outclassed by human minion masters and "orders" like build because the human player is likely to fall asleep, although I never did when using it for B/P in tombs long time ago) you forgot to name all the builds that humans use better than heroes.

[DE] · Aug 05, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

If you're going to debate whether or not 7 heroes should be allowed, you need to think of the 'middle-class', or the 'average' player. The truth is, when it comes to most MMO's, and Guild Wars is included in this, the average player is bad. I'm not saying this in a mean way. There are plenty of good reasons why they might be this way, whether it deals with time schedules or pretty much anything RL related.

What I am saying, is that the 7 heroes allow them to steamroll zones so much easier, than if they were forced to team up with others. Obviously there are pros and cons to that viewpoint, but the idea is that an online game should focus on, and reward players, for playing with others. While that's not a necessity, there should be a strong emphasis on the teamwork that goes along with it, whether that means forming a guild, playing with allies, or trying to start some PUGs.

However, as soon as you give the average player a way to go through the game in a much more efficient manner by themselves, then with others, they will take it. And as soon as that happens, your community begins to go downhill. Less and less people want to play with each other. And why should they? Everything you could do with others can now be down by yourself and it'll be hassle free!

Now, when it comes to speed clears, that's a whole different story, and a whole different debate that I'd rather not get into.

Lishy · Aug 05, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

As far as vanquishing, missions and dungeons go, yes, 2 players and 6 heroes do steamroll most. You know there's a problem when sabway/discordway/spiritway/whatever can complete these areas faster than a balanced team of 8 decent players.

You know there's a problem when someone tries to educate someone when they don't know shit of what they're talking about.
Go beat vloxen's hm with discordway and tell me it's overpowered.

Seriously though. People like you need to shut the hell up unless you know what you're talking about.
Discordway/spiritway/sabway/whateverway, aren't overpowered. They're simply just something called common strategy that hero ai can manage, as well as utilizing basic mechanics such as minions, hexes to reduce enemy efficiency, and basic, spammable heals.

Arkantos · Aug 05, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

You know there's a problem when someone tries to educate someone when they don't know shit of what they're talking about.
Go beat vloxen's hm with discordway and tell me it's overpowered.

Seriously though. People like you need to shut the hell up unless you know what you're talking about.
Discordway/spiritway/sabway/whateverway, aren't overpowered. They're simply just something called common strategy that hero ai can manage, as well as utilizing basic mechanics such as minions, hexes to reduce enemy efficiency, and basic, spammable heals.

For the most part, they do steamroll dungeons. While it may not be able to steamroll through Vloxen's, it certainly can be done.

But, you're right. I've only been playing for 3 and a half years, I've only completed most dungeons with 2 humans and 6 heroes. But hey, I'm sure you're right, I haven't the slightest clue what I'm talking about.

Bryant Again · Aug 05, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

A prime example of someone who doesn't know all that you can do with heroes.

There's a difference in what you can do as opposed to what you have to do.

In my earlier days yeah, I micro'd the shit out of them. I'd specifically target Zhen at certain moments in an encounter to use Meteor. I'd set certain targets for Koss throughout fights for KD pressure. I'd frequently have Dunkuro set Prot Spirit on my because I was greedy (: D).

But now?

I just put Sabway on my heroes and faceroll through HM.

The only micro I still do is getting one of my necro heroes to Prot spirit me, but that's only when I want to really [email protected] by bringing Frenzy on my bar.

[DE] · Aug 05, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Until they implement a better hero micromanagement system, heroes will never reach their full potential - which might be a good thing because they'd be scary good if it ever happened.

Daesu · Aug 05, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

You've reinforced my point. It takes a higher level of managerial skills to handle a team of heroes/henchmen. It takes leadership skills to lead a group of humans trying to accomplish a goal. The human element, more times often than not, is a harder skill to develop.

If you want to define it that way, then it takes BOTH managerial and leadership skills to handle a team of heroes/henchmen. Not only do you know what needs to be done at a split second, you also need to do it for the heroes with fast reflexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

As far as vanquishing, missions and dungeons go, yes, 2 players and 6 heroes do steamroll most. You know there's a problem when sabway/discordway/spiritway/whatever can complete these areas faster than a balanced team of 8 decent players.

I dont understand this need for a "balanced" human team to be able to steamroll through everything. PvE planning is suppose to find the optimal team build for a particular area. Know your area and know the enemies that will be in them. That is why you should read up the wiki first and know where to go and plan your build, it is PvE afterall. The monsters in the area are not going to surprise you with new builds. Even discordway fails if there are not enough corpses in the area and discordway (powerful as it maybe) is not always the most optimal build for an area.

"Balanced" team builds are for pvp, for pve you should plan specific builds for specific areas if you want optimal results.

Pocketmancer · Aug 05, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

That doesn't have anything to do with leadership.

fenix · Aug 05, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

This originally started off as a thread to discuss whether people would want seven heroes, despite ANet clearly stating they won't do it.

It's now turned into a thread full of baseless arguments and poor 'facts'. After 130 pages, this thread has exhausted the discussion part of whether seven heroes should be implemented, and now it is simply yelling back and forth with accusations of inexperience and made up 'facts' about the viability of seven heroes.

Now it is a case of waiting for ANet to either implement seven heroes, or not (which they said).

This topic will not be reopened in a new thread. This is done.